886. The delightful Ellen Jovin of the Grammar Table (you may have seen her sitting on the street answering grammar questions in your city) joined me to talk about her new book, "Rebel with a Clause," what possessed her to set up the Grammar Table in the first place, why Twitter is vastly better than Facebook for doing language polls, and more.
886. The delightful Ellen Jovin of the Grammar Table (you may have seen her sitting on the street answering grammar questions in your city) joined me to talk about her new book, "Rebel with a Clause," what possessed her to set up the Grammar Table in the first place, why Twitter is vastly better than Facebook for doing language polls, and more.
Transcript: https://grammar-girl.simplecast.com/episodes/ellen-jovin-of-the-grammar-table
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Mignon:
Grammar Girl here, I'm Mignon Fogarty, and you can think of me as your friendly guide to the English language. We talk about writing, history, rules, and other cool stuff. And today we're going to have an especially fun conversation with Ellen Jovin, famous for the Grammar Table, and now with a new book out called "Rebel with a Clause." Welcome, Ellen.
Ellen:
Thank you so much for having me here. I'm sitting in the grammar empire, I feel like.
Mignon:
Oh, I wonder
Ellen:
And then, and then my book, is that what you said?
Mignon:
Yeah.
Ellen:
Okay.
Mignon:
And then, okay. Actually, before we get to the book, I have to ask you, this was my first thought when I very first heard about what you were doing, "What on earth possessed you to put a table out on the street to talk to people about grammar?"
Ellen:
Mignon:
How nice. So I guess you were a little bit ahead of the curve in, you know, getting away from social media and getting back into like interacting with people in the real world.
Ellen:
I don't know. Well, I, maybe. I think plenty of people have been doing this, have been trying to do this for a while. I am still on a computer an awful lot. The pandemic was not great for that, you know, moving away from the computer during COVID was not super easy. Um, but I, I really do love
Mignon:
As am I.
Ellen:
But yeah, I find that when I'm on, it's like ... you know, when I was a kid and I would watch too much TV, you know, like Saturday mornings, the cartoons would be on I'd watch hour after hour, and I would get cranky. Of course, I wouldn't know, admit that I was cranky, but I would get cranky. And the same thing happens with computers. And, you know, even though I like, I love, I love posting things and tweeting things. I love writing generally. So social media is like one big writing project, as far as I'm concerned, it's still, it's still a lot of non-human contact. And as you know, it changes things when you are actually speaking live. It's just different.
Mignon:
Yeah. And I actually was gonna say you were still very much on social media. You do these wonderful Twitter polls all the time that I see. Did the Twitter polls come before the Grammar Table or after?
Ellen:
Well, they definitely came after because I didn't have the Grammar Table account till the Grammar Table existed. So that's also, I think that is also just from 2018. And it took me a little while to realize, you know, these ... ability of different media to handle the exact things I wanted in a poll — that varies. I used to do a lot of polling and questions on Facebook, but it doesn't ... the thing about Twitter polls is that you have anonymity in the responses. And so people don't necessarily want you to know how they voted, you know. They might feel embarrassed or self-conscious, and you also, the other thing is that on Twitter, you can't see how everyone else is voting before you vote. And I find that on Facebook, if I post an identical poll, it, it skews way off in one direction. Because people start seeing a trend, and then that affects their answers. You gotta keep it blind. They, yeah, you have to not let people know how other people are voting until they've made a decision.
Mignon:
Oh, that's fascinating. So there's a pile on effect everyone ...
Ellen:
Yes. There's a grammar ...
Mignon:
There's a crowd.
Ellen:
It's a grammar pile on! Completely.
Mignon:
That's amazing. And so are you ever surprised by the responses to your Twitter polls, like often or, or never? Not often?
Ellen:
I am. I am about 1% of the time. I think 1 to 2%. Pretty rarely. I mean, sometimes I'll be a little surprised by a gap, but it will still be in the direction I expected, but you know, I post a lot, so 1 to 2%, it's a fairly regular occurrence that I say, "Wow, that isn't what I expected."
Mignon:
Well, and that's interesting too, because I would think of almost anyone ,you would have your sort of finger on the pulse of what people are thinking since you've actually been out talking to people.
Ellen:
Often those one, those polls where I'm surprised, are things that people message me about, you know, and say, "Hey, I have this question." So it'll be something that I haven't necessarily thought about before. And it might be from a non-native speaker who has a different way of thinking about a language topic, or if it involves slang that's more common for a younger person. I might not have heard it at all ever in my life
Mignon:
Ellen:
It didn't cross my mind at all. Which in retrospect I think is kind of weird because I'd actually, I mean, I'd already written, I was in the middle when I started the Grammar Table, I was in the middle of writing a grammar book for business people. And I had also, I had an agent who had been encouraging me to write a book about grammar since something like 2014, you know, like a general interest grammar book. And I hadn't really picked, you know, I hadn't really thought of an angle that interested me because I have plenty of grammar books that I like reading, you know, like people like you have written grammar books already. So I didn't really have, I felt like I didn't have something really that fresh. And when I set up the Grammar Table, for some reason, the thing did not intersect in my head with my book-writing interest at all. And it took people actually saying to me, this seems like it could be a book. You should write a book. And I thought, oh yeah,
Mignon:
Ellen:
Sure. That was in Decatur, Alabama, and you know, ... by the way the spots sometimes pick themselves. Like I didn't, I didn't actually, I think when we entered, I'm not even sure when I entered Alabama that I knew we were going to Decatur yet. It's not that far from Huntsville. So often we'd be heading, we being my husband, Brent Johnson and I ... Brent filmed the whole thing, as you know, and is making a documentary about it. So I believe around the time I crossed the state line, I knew that we were going to Decatur, or maybe, and I'd never been there before. I didn't know anything about it, but it looked like a town that had streets, and that's,
Ellen:
And we set up in front of a barbecue place, and it wasn't entirely clear to me how much traffic we would get. It wasn't like ... it's not like Manhattan. You always have to try to pick places where there will be at least some people, and these two guys came along. It was, I think it was before noon. I think it was morning when we got there late morning. And they were playing hooky from their construction job. They were in their early twenties and they were absolutely hilarious. I think some, I think it's possible ... some people might have been a little put off because they were drunk. It was, you know, 11 something, and they were a little, they were a little off color at times, but one of the great adventures about this is just seeing how people are in different parts of the country.
Ellen:
I mean, we are pretty similar. We all have, you know, similar types of limb functions and vocal cords and things like that. And we eat and we sleep, and do a lot of the same things, but I couldn't have predicted the things that would've, that were, that came out of their mouth, their mouths, they didn't have one mouth. They actually each had their own mouth, but the things that came out of their mouths and the things that they said to each other and to me were just amazing. One of them was a huge grammar and calligraphy nerd. And so he was, I think he was around 20, I forget 23, 24. And he was annoyed with his father because his father, in texts, would abbreviate and put things like the letter K for "Okay." And it annoyed him because he wanted his father to write out full words.
Ellen:
And he also hated when people didn't use comma. So he showed me his texts on his phone. He was all excited. He opened up his phone, he showed me how on his texts, he had full commas, and he wanted to know if I liked his punctuation, which I did. I told him I liked his punctuation. I believe I wasn't enthusiastic enough. So I had to reiterate, "Yes, I really love your punctuation." You know, he'd he, I think he actually ... I would have to look this up, but he definitely does the for direct address, you know? So if he addresses someone comma, then he goes on, but I think he even did, "Hey, comma, you" instead of, so like, and then kept going from there. So he is heavy on the commas. And he really wanted to discuss the apostrophe in "y'all," which is not my area of expertise, because I don't say "y'all," I don't think you say "y'all" either. Do you or?
Mignon:
Well, I, when I was a restaurant hostess, I used, in college, I used "y'all," even though I lived in Seattle, because it was ... it's the best way, I think, to address a group of people that, you know, they come in and they want a table. And if I was saying, you know, "Would you like a table on the patio?" You know, I would, my eyes would start darting around like, which "you" am I addressing? Right. And so, so I ended up using "y'all" even though I lived in Seattle because I found it so useful, but I haven't used it since.
Ellen:
It's expired. It expired after that. That's funny. Yeah, so he was annoyed that so many people put "ya'll" instead of "y'all." he was indignant about it.
Mignon:
Because it's "you all."
Ellen:
Mignon:
Ellen:
I think it was a good editorial choice actually, but I did wanna honor it with a notation, you know, with a note that something had been removed. So people would be able to use their imaginations.
Mignon:
How funny! Well, that was one question I had. Were you writing the book as you were traveling, or did you wait until the end after you were all finished and then start writing?
Ellen:
I wanted to be writing as I travel. I had all these grand ambitions for all the wonderful things I would get done while on the road. So I was planning to, you know, get transcripts from the videos, turn them into book. By the time I was done traveling, I'd have the book done. I mean, it was really delusional
Ellen:
So it was hot and I'd be sweaty and dragging the table around. And um, because you know, Brandt would often, I used to joke about this a lot because when we, I would book hotels that were reasonably close to where I thought I'd wanna set up. So we would leave the hotel and Brandt wanted to film me carrying the table. So I'd be dragging the books and carrying the table, and he'd be on the other side of the street, you know, filming
Mignon:
A table to me, sounds like something that would be heavy, and books are heavy.
Ellen:
Yes. But it's, actually really great. The footage that we have, because you can see me, like, I feel like maybe I shouldn't be talking about this because this feels like maybe it's sort of behind this, you know, maybe it's meant to stay behind the movie scenes, but it's just funny. I find it funny, goofy. Like it makes me laugh to see me hauling, stuff through the streets of new Orleans. It just looks silly. And that's why one of the reasons I like this so much, because often people think of grammar as serious. And for me it is a hoot. Like there's so much, there's so many ways you can have fun, you know, the way people argue with each other, they get into these heated discussions. I mean, my dream for next Thanksgiving is that instead of fighting over politics, people will have a whole bunch of Thanksgiving arguments over punctuation or something. And then, you know, it will just be a lot calmer.
Mignon:
Yeah. I try to do that around the holidays. I try to put out topics that people can talk about. Like what, you know, ... ask your grandparent, whether they called a sofa or a couch.
Ellen:
Oh, that's good. Yeah.
Mignon:
Something people can talk about.
Ellen:
Yeah. I don't have a lot of sofa/couch expertise. What do you say?
Mignon:
I say "couch." I grew up saying "couch." I think sofa ... oh, I forget now, but I think maybe it's more of an east coast thing.
Ellen:
You know what, I can't remember what I say now. I think I might be split, and I did spend about half my life on the west coast and then the other half here. So
Mignon:
I know I do love that New York is such a walkable city. Like you were saying,
Ellen:
You know what I realized? I did not spend half and half, I've been here way longer. I think apparently I think I'm a lot younger than I am.
Mignon:
Oh my gosh. That's so funny. So I know, so Brandt is filming this whole thing, or he was filming this whole thing. So when is the documentary coming out?
Ellen:
I'm not sure. He's pretty far along now. He worked on it all, you know, during the pandemic. I wrote the book, and he worked on the documentary. So he has about a feature-length body of work now that he's refining. And I mean, there's a lot of stuff left to do, but it's taking shape. So when it happens, we'll know ...
Mignon:
Yeah. What's next then, "Grammar Table, The Musical"?
Ellen:
Mignon:
Ellen:
That's what I've heard as well. However, if I was taught that choir, I don't recall that. And I don't think it's something that I wouldn't recall. That is exactly the kind of thing I would recall. So maybe I was absent that day or maybe I'm just a sloppy pronounciator. I don't
Mignon:
Yeah. The same here, but I never took, oh,
Ellen:
You have?
Mignon:
Yeah. Oh yeah. And I never took choir, so that's why people tell me, oh, I learned it in choir, and I'm like, "Oh, there you go! I'm excused. I didn't take choir."
Ellen:
Well, I also, you know, I did, check with Merriam-Webster about ... I wrote Peter Sokolowski once about this because I was, you know, I had these complaints about my, ... I think it was like "the orange" or something. I think I said something like "the orange"
Mignon:
Mm-hmm
Ellen:
And so I consulted with Peter, and he said he didn't know how anyone could call that wrong.
Mignon:
Hmm. Interesting. Well,
Ellen:
It's just, yeah, he's quite, that might be an approximation of what he actually said, but you know, he's a descriptivist, so he's gonna,
Mignon:
Yeah.
Ellen:
He was supportive of my ways, although I'm absol... I'm sure he doesn't do that. I'm sure he is a, "thee apple, thee orange" kind of person. Whereas, I now know that people have been noticing this about me and just silently keeping that in their hearts.
Mignon:
Yeah, in their hearts. Well, that reminds me of another thing I was going to ask you because I heard that you wrote to the French Academy with a language question, and I have always been intrigued by the French Academy and their, um, prescriptive about language and hatred of English essentially.
Ellen:
Um, in fact, I think I have a history of doing that once. That's my recollection. Well, I did, you know, when I first moved to New York, I did actually, I remember I wanted to know the official word on the plural of, no, the plural possessive of "sister-in-law"
Mignon:
Mm-hmm
Ellen:
Which, you know, basically I just wouldn't do because you, okay, so you make it plural, you get "sisters in-law." So I wanted to know then what would you do to make that a possessive? And so I wrote to an English department, and it might have been at Columbia. It might have been somewhere else. I don't really remember, but I had this impression when I was 24, that people would just know the answer to this question that I could rely on it and be authoritative. And I remember the answer I got back did not impress me.
Ellen:
I just thought, no, that's not right. And I don't remember. I no longer remember what the answer was. I mean, I just wouldn't do, I just wouldn't do the possessive of plural of "sister-in-law." You don't have to be able to do every single thing you want to in life. Sometimes you have to have workarounds for language challenges. Because if you put it "sisters apostrophe in law," that's gonna be weird.
Mignon:
Yeah.
Ellen:
Yeah. And it's gonna be weird if it's "sisters in law, apostrophe" as no, can't do that. So anyway maybe that was the beginning of my grammar adventures. That moment I realized there's not an ultimate authority, you know?
Mignon:
Yeah.
Ellen:
And I like that. I like the Wild West nature of this. Like you trot around, things surprise you, things pop out from behind doors. Um, you know, it just, you don't know what you're going to encounter. And that's also why I enjoy setting up in places where I haven't been to see people, I wouldn't know otherwise.
Mignon:
So did the French Academy answer your question?
Ellen:
They did. And it was, you know, it was one of those things about pronunciation, pronouncing the consonant at the end of a normally silent, a word that would end with a silent consonant. You sometimes pronounce that consonant. If the next word begins with a vowel. And the answer was along the lines of one should do it. One should pronounce it in this case. But I actually did a poll about the very question the other day. And I think I have to go back, you know, you're reminding me, I need to go back and look at it. It was definitely not something that people agreed about very much when I did this Twitter poll about ... sometimes I usually post questions about English on my Twitter account, but other languages creep in for fun. And I have to go back and see how many people actually pronounce the consonant at the end of this verb.
Mignon:
Well, I think slightly higher of them because they answered your question.
Ellen:
Good for them.
Mignon:
So, and that ... also ... you ... English, it's not just English that you're into, right?
Ellen:
Yeah.
Mignon:
You have studied many, many languages, right?
Ellen:
Um, yes I have. And they're sitting behind me on my bookshelves alphabetized mostly by language. Although I can see there's a little chaos over somewhere in this corner. Oh, by the way, may I add something about the French thing?
Mignon:
Sure.
Ellen:
So on the one hand, I love English because you don't really have this authority being so bossy about how things should be done. But I think the reality is that a lot of people just want to know what's best to do in a given situation. They wanna move on with their lives. They don't want, not everyone wants to sit there and discuss plural formation of irregular nouns in English for two hours at a time. And I think that some of the descriptive impulse, you know, oh, well, there are all these ranges, there's this range of things you can do while really interesting, on the one hand, I think it frustrates students who just want to move along and live their lives, earn a living, raise their children, enjoy recreational time at the beach.
Ellen:
So we can't expect everyone to like that gray area as well as, you know, some of us might like it. I like the mushiness. But anyway, yeah. So going back to the languages, around 2009, actually in 2009, I started a language learning project that I think I was originally ... oh yes ... I was originally planning to do a year ... a month per language. And just, I wanted to just spend time getting as quickly, as intensively into the basics of each as I could in a month. And I realized that was stupid pretty quickly. I changed it to three months and then the project became two years, then three years, and then extended, I think in the end, about eight to nine years of language study.
Ellen:
And initially it was real ... like I went completely crazy. I would do it every single day. I think I did hundreds, something like 700 days in a row without doing like serious actual study. I don't mean like doing Duolingo for three minutes. I mean, like I'd really study stuff. And I loved it connected me with this whole global language nerd community, people who love studying languages just for the sake of studying languages. And it was great. I went to conferences, I co-organized a conference for polyglots. And it also expanded my idea of what grammar is and can be. And I think that's valuable in English because we can get a little complacent if we sit in it too long with so many people speaking it. There's so many different ways that the human brain can put ideas together and represent them on a page.
Ellen:
And it's great fun to explore that. It's world opening. It connects. I find that like studying a little bit of a language with a different script. It just makes me feel closer. I don't know. I mean maybe this is obnoxious to say, but I, it makes me feel closer to the people who use it. And like if I can even read what's on their store signs or I can recognize some words online or if I hear it in a video, I can understand it. It makes me feel like more part of the human community and for, and that's very moving to my heart.
Mignon:
Well, your love of language and especially English, but all language really comes through, and how fun it can be, and how you make it fun for everyone else who's reading your work or talking with you really comes through. So especially in your book, "Rebel with a Clause," which is out, I think when this runs it'll be just out so people can go buy it: "Rebel with a Clause" by Ellen Jovin. And where, what else would you like to tell people, Ellen, before we go?
Ellen:
I think, people are welcome to visit me at my Grammar Table account at @grammartable on Twitter. That is where I am currently most active. And I think also it would be fun to mention one of my friends on Twitter, one of my Twitter language geek friends, commented on how it would be fun to interpret the title as imperative, like "Rebel with a Clause." Ah, so that can be, you know, like a, a proposal for your listeners.
Mignon:
Kind of like March forth for National Grammar Day.
Ellen:
Exactly. That's right, exactly. It'll make language even more fun: Rebel. With a clause.
Mignon:
That's wonderful. Well, thanks so much again for being here today.
Ellen:
Thank you for having me. It's an honor and a pleasure to speak to you.
Mignon:
Oh, it's all mine. Thanks. Bye.