1137. In this bonus conversation with Rob Drummond from back in June, he and I get into the fascinating concept of "languaging" — the idea that speaking is an active process we use to constantly shape and project our identities. Rob explains how our "speaking identities" are incredibly fluid, changing based on context, audience, and even the language we're using.
In this bonus conversation with Rob Drummond from back in June, he and I get into the fascinating concept of "languaging" — the idea that speaking is an active process we use to constantly shape and project our identities. Rob explains how our "speaking identities" are incredibly fluid, changing based on context, audience, and even the language we're using.
Rob Drummond - https://bsky.app/profile/robdrummond.bsky.social
Rob's book, "You're All Talk"
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[Computer-generated transcript]
Mignon: Happy Thanksgiving to everyone in the U.S. This year, I am again grateful for all of you who listen to the show. And now, I have an interview with Rob Drummond that we recorded back in June.
Greetings, Grammarpaloozians. Thank you so much for your support. We are here today for your bonus episode with Rob Drummond, author of “You're All Talk,” a fascinating book about language and accents that's just newly out in paperback. Rob, thank you so much for being here.
Rob: Thank you very much for having me.
Mignon: You bet. So, there are so many things left to talk about that are fascinating about language that you covered in your book. You know, multilingualism was something that I thought was really fascinating in the way it interplays with identity and how people feel more comfortable or do different things in different languages or different accents.
Rob: Yeah, this ties in with what we're talking about in terms of style shifting. So people talk about style shifting and code-switching. Often they'll just use the term code-switching to mean the general meaning of, you know, changing the way you speak, whether that's switching between languages or switching between varieties of the same language. I tend to use style shifting when we're talking about shifting between varieties of the one language. So, for example, in English, I think of switching between different kinds of varieties of that or different registers of that. I think of code-switching between languages. But, you know, either term is fine, but they're very similar in a way, in that there's a kind of a very functional idea of code-switching where obviously you change the way you switch between languages because somebody can't understand you.
So say you have a group of bilingual friends, and somebody joins the group who only speaks one of the languages. Then, you know, out of politeness, I guess, most people would switch what they're saying into the language that everybody can understand.
That's pretty functional. But what if you are in a group of bilingual, multilingual speakers who all share the same languages? Which languages do people use then? And I think the experience of a lot of people is that they sort of dip in and out of different languages at different times.
It's not as if they, you know, rigidly stay in one language and then switch to another, which is why a lot of people reject the whole idea and the term code-switching because it's too mechanical. It's too rigid. It gives the impression that you are in one language, and then you switch to the other language, and then you switch back to that language. Most people who have multiple languages will say it's a lot more fluid than that. And there are certain, some people talk about using language as a verb. So the idea of languaging or translanguaging, or just languaging, is that language is something we do. It's not something we, you know, we have. And I think people having that experience of operating in multiple languages will consciously or often subconsciously choose different languages depending on the topic of what they're saying and the whole context of what they're saying. I had a PhD student look into this, and she was looking at her friendship group; her whole PhD study was on her friendship group, who were all completely balanced bilinguals between Arabic — they were all Libyans — Arabic and English. And she recorded their, they used to meet up socially all the time, she recorded their conversations; and it turns out there was a real pattern to which language they would use in different situations when they were talking about certain things. If it was to do with their studies, it would be in English. If they were talking about politics, it might be in Arabic, and if they were being humorous with each other, it would be in English, and so on. She kind of noticed these patterns, and it really hit home how much it relates to identity and to the identity and what we want to do with language in that particular context.
And so how people who have one language might switch between different styles of speaking depending on whether they're trying to be funny or trying to do whatever, or trying to be serious or what they're talking about. The same goes for people who have multiple languages; they just have a lot more work with.
So yeah, fascinating that that student's name was Hanan Ben Nafa, actually. She was brilliant. Really, really good. So yeah, I think it's a fascinating area, but it always comes back to identity. I think it comes back to the identity we want to project.
And incidentally, this will resonate with people who do have multiple languages. People often talk about feeling almost as if they have different personalities in different languages, and they feel that maybe they're more confident — may not just be talking about confidence in, you know, "I'm confident speaking French" or "I'm almost confident speaking Spanish" or whatever. Imagine they're fluent in two or more languages; they're almost like a different person. That might be to do with how they use that language in terms of who they interact with. If they use Spanish because their extended family speaks Spanish, then Spanish might conjure up ideas of friendliness, and they might feel more friendly and kind and confident in that way in that language. They might have another language that they associate more with work, and that becomes more formal, or they feel a bit less expressive in a particular language. So I just think it's fascinating how much the way we speak interacts with who we are.
Mignon: Yeah, it really is. I can't imagine this next part has anything to do with identity, but maybe it does. The part about stammering in your book was also so interesting because, you know, people could influence the level of difficulty they had with stammering by changing accents or singing, too, I thought that was so interesting.
Rob: Yeah, I think it does. Again, it really relates to our sense of identity. I know this from personal experience because I used to — Well, I would say I still have a stammer; you wouldn't hear it in this context because I'm quite comfortable, and it wouldn't come up. But in certain situations, I still have it. I used to have it quite badly when I was younger, in my teenage years and early twenties. The reason I think it relates is that even though my stammer is still relatively mild compared to some others I'll talk about, there are certain situations where I would know, and stammerers are good at this, any stammerer will tell you, they know when they're about to stammer. They know which words - We're always thinking ahead when we're talking anyway. But I think people who stammer are even better at that; they're thinking ahead, and they know — certainly in my experience — I would know I’d be, you know, a second ahead in the conversation thinking, "I can't say that." I would change what I was going to say, or sometimes it would just mean I couldn't say what I wanted to say. Or I'd be in a situation where, because I might, for me, it's worse when there’s a lot of background noise, and there's loads of people talking. I find it very difficult, and so I kind of — you have something to say. I just wouldn't say it because I just know I'm not going to get it out. So I just say it, and I think, well.. I didn't think anything of it at the time, you know, growing up with this. But now looking back, I think, well, there are certain situations where people would think, "Wow, that Rob guy, he's a bit quiet."
Why did — why didn't he say anything? Because I would just be really, really quiet. It would just be pointless. I wouldn't be able to say it. I wouldn't be able to get it out. It would just be awkward. So I just — again, it links to personality. People might get a very wrong idea of my personality just because of this. And anyway, with serious scammers, there are loads of techniques for dealing with stammers, and one of them is that people have found that if they use almost a different voice or a different accent, things become easier. Or people find they don't have a stammer when they're singing, which is really interesting. You know, it shows it's not a mechanical thing. It's a psychological thing. And I'm not an expert on stammering, by the way, at all. I just know a bit from experience and a bit from reading, but I think it's fascinating.
Again, you're using a different voice. It's almost like you're becoming a different person because the way I see the whole kind of style shifting and all this is that we use our voice to project a particular identity and create a particular identity. So who we are is dictated in part by how we behave, how we dress, how we have our hair and makeup, tattoos, piercings, and how we carry ourselves. All of these things give off an impression and contribute to our identity. And we use our voice plays a big part in that as well. So what happens when someone doesn't have full control over their voice? Is that a kind of restricting part of their identity, or does that become part of their identity itself? To me, as I said before, spoken language is such an important part of who we are, so what happens when we don't have as much control over it as typically people do? I don't know; it's fascinating.
Mignon: Yeah. And then there's this fascinating syndrome called foreign accent syndrome, where people's voices are literally taken away from them. When they wake up after a stroke or something like that, they have a terrible migraine with a new accent. I remember when I first heard about this I was skeptical that it was even true, but it is a real thing, right?
Rob: It is. I was also skeptical. I'd heard about it and thought, I remember when I was writing the book, I thought, is it even worth putting in? Then I remember my editor actually said, "No, this is really interesting. We should expand this a bit more." So I did actually do a bit more digging. Once you start looking into it, there are quite a few examples.
What's interesting, of course, is that the way it's reported in the media is often very different from what's actually happening. So it's reported, it has this name of foreign accent syndrome, and people will say, "Oh, I had a bang on the head," or "I suffered something," or "I had an illness, and I woke up and I had an Australian accent," or a Chinese accent, or something really odd, with no relation to how they originally spoke. Of course, it's not really that. What it is is that something, the illness or the bang on the head or some physical thing has affected the way somebody speaks, and then it's interpreted as being a particular accent. We’re so in tune with voices. We're always trying to place people and fit them into different boxes, saying, "Well, that person has an American accent," or "That person has a Scottish accent," whatever. So, we are always looking for, as humans, we're looking to find patterns whenever we can, I guess. So we hear a voice, and if it's not the same voice, it's something different. We think — subconsciously, I say we do this consciously — that sounds like this accent, this sounds like a French accent. It's not that somebody has literally woken up one day with a French accent; somebody has had something that has affected the way they speak, and listeners, including themselves, interpret it as sounding a bit like a French accent. But it's amazing. I'm not an expert on the mechanics of it, but what I am interested in is how people are perceived because of that and what a huge shock that must be and what a huge change that must be to their sense of self. I keep saying the way we speak is so central to who we are. Also in terms of how people perceive us, you know, crucially, we speak in a certain way and that makes us who we are in part. But a big part of that is how we are perceived, you know, that our identity arguably exists somewhere between the kind of a speaker and the listener. It depends on how we are perceived.
If we then suddenly speak in a way that means we are perceived in a very different way, that is going to have a huge effect. Again, it's a fascinating area. Whenever that link between language and identity is disrupted in some way, it creates some very interesting situations.
Mignon: Yeah, you just said in your book that some people even move to a place where their accent or their new way of speaking might fit in a little better. It's really sad, actually, that they would need to do that or feel like they needed to do that. So interesting. Well, the book is “You're All Talk” with Rob Drummond, and when you finish reading that — because you're definitely going to want to do that — Rob has some book recommendations for you to add to your to-be-read list. I love this part of the show. Rob, give us your book recommendations.
Rob: Yes, right. So I've got three books now. Now, I don't say I read a lot, but I do read. For work, I read a lot of language books, so outside of work, I don't tend to read anything to do with language. The three books I've got — the first one is actually a series of books. I've got it here because it's here. This is by somebody called Julia Chapman. It's called “A Date with Death,” and it's part of the Dale's Detective Series. It's set in the Yorkshire Dales, a really nice part of England. I have to come clean; I know Julia. I knew Julia before I knew we worked together a long time ago, but this is before she started writing books. We used to be English teachers together, and this is a great book. It's sometimes called a cozy detective series, along the lines of Richard Osman’s books. I think cozy reading is sometimes seen as a negative thing, but to me, it's perfect. It's easy to read, and they're just lovely stories. Brilliant. So that's my first one: the Dale's Detective Series from Julia.
Mignon: I love cozy mysteries.
Rob: Yeah. Yeah, so it was great. The next one I haven't got with me is called, it's called “The Final Year.” And it's written by a guy called Matt Goodfellow. It's aimed at, sort of, children, or young adults, or even children, but it's about somebody's final year at what we would call primary school before they go to kind of high school. So age, sort of 10, 11. And it's the most moving book I think I've ever read. It's absolutely brilliant, and it's one of those things where it's written for kids or young adults. There’s so much in it, and, language-wise, it's set in Manchester where we're based. So some of the language is a bit kind of ... He kind of represents the local language, and it's a brilliant, absolutely brilliant book.
Mignon: Is it fiction or nonfiction?
Rob: It’s fiction. This is fiction. And, yeah, and he's done some more stuff now, and I think he's now written a book called “The First Year,” which is following the same kind of boy moving into his first year at high school. And I won't have done it justice, but honestly, it will. It, yeah, it brought a tear to my eye. It's just a lovely, lovely book.
The last one is another fiction book. And this is called “Liccle Bit,” and it's by a guy called Alex Wheatle. And again, I knew Alex; Alex sadly died earlier this year from cancer, and he was a hugely kind of powerful voice in young adult fiction, and adult fiction as well, but young adult fiction especially. And he's a fascinating man. So have a look at Alex Wheatle's work. I came across, I got to know Alex later. But I read this before I knew him, and I thought it was brilliant.
Again, it's a young adult, it is aimed at young adults. But I think a lot of young adult fiction is just so, so good and brilliant. And again, it's really.. And even though I say I don't read language books, I do like it when they're clever with language, and he uses language in a really clever way to represent young, Black, British sort of Londoners going about their lives and just brilliant, brilliant stories. And actually, can I tell you one thing about this? Because it reminded me. So I read it, and I was really interested in the language because at the time I was doing a project on youth language, on the language of young people. And he was sort of representing the language I was hearing. He was representing it in this. I thought, this is amazing. He's doing it so well. When I finally got to meet him, I kind of, I asked him, because I always thought, you know, when you're studying language and poetry and literature at school, and you look at these poems, you're trying to analyze what they mean. And my 15-year-old schoolboy would just think, well, why don't we just ask the poet? Why don't we just ask him what he meant? Don't let’s waste it. Just ask them. Anyway, I felt like this. I got to meet Alex. I'm just going, “How did you do that? How did you, how did you represent that language?” And I thought it was a really intelligent question. He just said, “I don't know. I just did it.” It's like, I don’t know. I just, that's what I hear. I hear it and I write it, and it was so, so good. Anyway, there's a series of those books as well, so that first one is called “Liccle Bit,” and it's L-I-C-C-L-E, and it's like a different pronunciation of "little," but yeah, there are three brilliant books.
Mignon: Yeah, I mean, it's always great to have a series because if you love it, then there's more. Well, Rob Drummond, thank you so much for being here. Again, the book is called “You're All Talk,” fabulous book about the way we speak. Rob, where can people find you?
Rob: So, I'm just sort of around on social media. Just search for Rob Drummond, and you'll find me on most things; on Bluesky, X, Instagram, and even TikTok now get me.
Mignon: Oh, wow. Good for you. Well, thank you again so much for being here, and thanks to all the listeners. That's all. Thanks for listening.